I don’t know. I completely disagree with this statement. While you could make an argument about the concept of “machismo” in these cultures, sometimes it’s a game of “let’s look at how pervasive sexism is in THEIR culture and how ‘primitive’ and ‘uncivilized’ they are without ever examining what goes on in our own.” I know that’s not what you intended. And while in certain ways our society has made “progress” I wouldn’t exactly call Western culture a shining beacon of light when it comes to the way women are viewed.

I’d take a guess that the primary demographic for shows like Howard Stern, Don Imus and Opie and Anthony, all horrendously misogynistic (and probably racist, at least we know in Imus’s case.. and now that I think about it, would be interesting to know if there would have been ACTUAL outrage over the “rape Condi” bit on O and A if she were white.) are probably middle to upper class white men.

The media’s treatment of Hillary Clinton is another example at how we as a whole do not have respect for women and the idea of women as leaders. There have been numerous times I’ve said “fuck it, I’m voting for her” just because of the sexist pile on of a media we’ve got. (Ok, I’m really not voting for her, but there’s been so many times I’ve said that, I can’t count.)

So yeah. I am trying to figure out where that line is. The line that acknowledges women’s experiences with misogyny in other cultures while not demonizing those cultures in a racist fashion. (Again, not saying that’s what you did here… it’s just I’m learning there’s a whole different dimension and ways to approach these things. And I’m pretty clueless about it.) And as well, not belittling their experiences while making comparisons. If that makes sense.

Ok, I went off on a tangent and I’m not sure if I made my point clear.

I don’t think I meant that it was gender specific as much as I was tying it to levels of privilege. And I do think that given white men’s level of privilege, they have to be aware of a lot less and they have a lot more power in these types of situations to shut down dialog. And similarly, while white women have less privilege than white men, they also have the power to shut down dialog with certain groups of people. And this is what I’ve been seeing played out on many feminist blogs.

And I like the idea of solutions and all, except that when I confront people about it I become Ms. Fucking Anal (Or at least that’s how it feels to me, and apparently what I’ve heard in the wings.) I hear this shit all over the place and then I go on my game to relax and unwind and THERE IT IS AGAIN from people who are supposedly “friends” and that wars with the desire to feel “liked” and a “nice person.” At some point I really need to ditch the worrying that I’m not liked - it isn’t like I don’t speak up about this shit, I just castigate myself afterwards that I’m not “nice.”

And for me, it’s not about debate. I don’t know how many times I’ve called a man on something misogynistic for him to try to debate me that because it wasn’t his intent, it’s not misogynistic. No. That’s not how it works. I can’t walk up to a black person and call them the “n” word and tell them “but I wasn’t INTENDING to be racist!” Again, massive resentment at the people who think they can say these things as if their words exist in a vacuum, that there aren’t connections, shadings and ugly meanings that actually effect and hurt other people, that they’re not holding up and reinforcing a hateful system in their use.

You know how I feel on this one, there’s no excuse for that kind of behavior. Though, like Tiv says, there may be explanations for it. I’m sory to say, it’s going to take a HUGE fucking change in how our western society raises our boys before we see a significant change.

I’ve been trying my hardest. With my middle school kids, I’m seeing the attitudes and hard-wired misogyny setting in already. These kids are just hitting puberty, and we have the classic model of most of the gils being taller and more developed than the girls. The boys don’t know how to handle it. Coming from largely uneducated backgrounds, where their primary cultural influences are urban/inner city and central American, respect for women’s intelligence and right to the same respect as strong male figures isn’t a strong factor in their development. I’ve heard plenty of mumbling and inappropriate comments about certain female teachers too, particularly one fairly busty ESL teacher who has a lower back tattoo.

There’s that funny line where older women are respected in the whole mother figure role, or at least feared and then made fun of behind their backs. But young female teachers in my school just get flat out disrespected and ignored quite a bit by the older boys. Meanwhile someone like me, who has little to no authoritative presence compared to some of these women who’ve been teaching longer than me, just by being male, can get them more in line.

I come down hardest on kids for using any kind of misogynist or homophobic language than I do for the occasional f-bomb or shit. Trying to stamp that out is at least as big of a goal as having these kids advance on these culturally biased No Child Left Behind mandated tests (other rant, when I get time to post something).

–That “piece of ass” stuff comes up, then so does a discussion on the “shortcomings” of men.

–The guild employs a policy: If you wouldn’t say it with an 8-year-old in the room, then you don’t say it in /guild or /raid. One guild I was with for a bit had that policy. Each class had its own channel, and the behavior there was moderated by the class lead (which meant the all-male mage channel was a little different from the all-female-but-one ‘lock channel). For all its faults, I did see that guild kick people out who couldn’t abide by the 8-year-old rule.

–When I’m told I’m too sensitive: “I think you’re being too insensitive.” And then, “Would you say that if your sister/daughter/girlfriend had been raped?”

Be fair, though.
“I’m sick of the way men can disengage from conversations that challenge their line of thinking and may just force them to see outside their own fucking bubble.”

That’s not gender-specific. That’s mindset-specific. A segment of the population ALWAYS believes they are right 100% of the time, and if you don’t agree, you’re WRONG. C WUT I DID THAR? (Man, I’ve been dying to use that somewhere!) Challenged your line of thinking. I believe there are open-minded men, who are willing to listen and engage in debate (where’s red?).

Not that I’m suggesting everyone in the guild is of a certain age, but….
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/

“And in particular, with emotional information, the teenager’s brain may be responding with more of a gut reaction than an executive or more thinking kind of response. And if that’s the case, then one of the things that you expect is that you’ll have more of an impulsive behavioral response, instead of a necessarily thoughtful or measured kind of response.”

An excuse? Nope, I’m not trying to give people an out. As a person trying to exist a world that just doesn’t fit me sometimes, I like to know the answers to “why” questions. “Why would he say that, and be a total jackass, when clearly I’m upset?” “Oh, because his brain isn’t developed, and he’s going to go for a gut reaction instead of a measured, logical one. I’ll rethink my approach, and use an argument he’ll be more likely to understand!”

Which doesn’t always FEEL nearly as good as yelling, “You insensitive, ignorant, moronic jackass!” That’s why we have journals, blogs, and friends to rant to! And, it’s an alternative, not an answer. If you don’t want to explain in a way that works for him (or her, or that person over there), you’re under absolutely no obligation to do so.

Oh, and, people are generally stupid.