<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Rebuttal to Jason: Why We Need Feminism</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.gwytherinn.com/2007/12/16/rebuttal-to-jason-why-we-need-feminism/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.gwytherinn.com/2007/12/16/rebuttal-to-jason-why-we-need-feminism/</link>
	<description>It is no measure of health to be well adjusted in a profoundly sick society. - Jiddu Krishnamurti</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Gwytherinn</title>
		<link>http://www.gwytherinn.com/2007/12/16/rebuttal-to-jason-why-we-need-feminism/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Gwytherinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 01:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gwytherinn.com/?p=24#comment-27</guid>
		<description>I don't know how to say it. The stuff you describe at your workplace makes me sad on a really deep level, because that kind of thing seems so pervasive. It's just everywhere. You are obviously sticking it to them... so I probably shouldn't be so doom and gloom about it all... but it's just everywhere.

You are right about the argument thing. I tend to have trouble describing and relating things that seem obvious to me to other people which leads to language like that. It's definitely something I need to work on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know how to say it. The stuff you describe at your workplace makes me sad on a really deep level, because that kind of thing seems so pervasive. It&#8217;s just everywhere. You are obviously sticking it to them&#8230; so I probably shouldn&#8217;t be so doom and gloom about it all&#8230; but it&#8217;s just everywhere.</p>
<p>You are right about the argument thing. I tend to have trouble describing and relating things that seem obvious to me to other people which leads to language like that. It&#8217;s definitely something I need to work on.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tiv</title>
		<link>http://www.gwytherinn.com/2007/12/16/rebuttal-to-jason-why-we-need-feminism/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gwytherinn.com/?p=24#comment-25</guid>
		<description>Because I want the fuel for your fire to come from varied sources:

Overheard at work (which, aside from me, is ALL military or former military, and aside from me and my boss, is all male):

The morning after Rep. Nancy Pelosi became Speaker of the House:
"Hey, did you guys see?  Madame Menopause!"

Every time Sen. Hillary Clinton comes on the television, someone has to pipe up with "Senator CUNTon is on!"

Tiv asked, "What's your problem with women?" "Nothing, except they don't belong in charge of the MILITARY, and that's what Hillary would be!  In charge of the MILITARY!"

Tiv asked, "Why don't women belong in charge of the military?" "Because they don't!  They can't fight, shoot guns, or think strategically!"

Tiv asked, "Is that what you think of the women you serve next to?" "Well, no, but they're different.  They understand the world."

I'm not a radical liberal feminist (I think you know me well enough to know that).  I do believe that women should have the same rights and respect as men.  And that's where I completely, 100% buy into the idea that we live in a patriarchy.  Those things women do well and do often, such as caretaking, teaching, and nurturing, are routinely de- and under-valued.

My current rebuttal to all the "We serve in the military, so of course we deserve to have our living, eating, and medical expenses covered!  We protect the country!" stuff I hear at work is to calmly ask, "And teachers?  Are those who instruct the youth of our country worth less than that?"

Where I would differ (and that's really not even the right word, because I agree with you, but where I think your arguement could be stronger) is in using phrases like, &lt;b&gt;"feminists aim to right a VERY REAL power imbalance going on between men and women"&lt;/b&gt;.  I know it's your blog, so it's okay to say that.  But in making a point to someone who might not believe the same way you do, it's more powerful and less emotionally charged to say, "feminists aim to right &lt;b&gt;what they see as&lt;/b&gt; a power imbalance..."  I agree that it's real.  But someone who has not, as you've said, been judged based on their gender, won't see it as real until it IS, if that makes sense.  Nunny has seen the guys at my work underestimate me *because* I'm female.  He's seen me shove it back in their faces by delivering more and better products and learning more in a short period of time than they thought I could.  He does see, NOW, that imbalance, and believes that it's wrong.  But I would say, as recently as three years ago, he didn't see it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because I want the fuel for your fire to come from varied sources:</p>
<p>Overheard at work (which, aside from me, is ALL military or former military, and aside from me and my boss, is all male):</p>
<p>The morning after Rep. Nancy Pelosi became Speaker of the House:<br />
&#8220;Hey, did you guys see?  Madame Menopause!&#8221;</p>
<p>Every time Sen. Hillary Clinton comes on the television, someone has to pipe up with &#8220;Senator CUNTon is on!&#8221;</p>
<p>Tiv asked, &#8220;What&#8217;s your problem with women?&#8221; &#8220;Nothing, except they don&#8217;t belong in charge of the MILITARY, and that&#8217;s what Hillary would be!  In charge of the MILITARY!&#8221;</p>
<p>Tiv asked, &#8220;Why don&#8217;t women belong in charge of the military?&#8221; &#8220;Because they don&#8217;t!  They can&#8217;t fight, shoot guns, or think strategically!&#8221;</p>
<p>Tiv asked, &#8220;Is that what you think of the women you serve next to?&#8221; &#8220;Well, no, but they&#8217;re different.  They understand the world.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a radical liberal feminist (I think you know me well enough to know that).  I do believe that women should have the same rights and respect as men.  And that&#8217;s where I completely, 100% buy into the idea that we live in a patriarchy.  Those things women do well and do often, such as caretaking, teaching, and nurturing, are routinely de- and under-valued.</p>
<p>My current rebuttal to all the &#8220;We serve in the military, so of course we deserve to have our living, eating, and medical expenses covered!  We protect the country!&#8221; stuff I hear at work is to calmly ask, &#8220;And teachers?  Are those who instruct the youth of our country worth less than that?&#8221;</p>
<p>Where I would differ (and that&#8217;s really not even the right word, because I agree with you, but where I think your arguement could be stronger) is in using phrases like, <b>&#8220;feminists aim to right a VERY REAL power imbalance going on between men and women&#8221;</b>.  I know it&#8217;s your blog, so it&#8217;s okay to say that.  But in making a point to someone who might not believe the same way you do, it&#8217;s more powerful and less emotionally charged to say, &#8220;feminists aim to right <b>what they see as</b> a power imbalance&#8230;&#8221;  I agree that it&#8217;s real.  But someone who has not, as you&#8217;ve said, been judged based on their gender, won&#8217;t see it as real until it IS, if that makes sense.  Nunny has seen the guys at my work underestimate me *because* I&#8217;m female.  He&#8217;s seen me shove it back in their faces by delivering more and better products and learning more in a short period of time than they thought I could.  He does see, NOW, that imbalance, and believes that it&#8217;s wrong.  But I would say, as recently as three years ago, he didn&#8217;t see it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: red</title>
		<link>http://www.gwytherinn.com/2007/12/16/rebuttal-to-jason-why-we-need-feminism/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 02:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gwytherinn.com/?p=24#comment-22</guid>
		<description>I see quite a few similarities between the Men's Rights Advocates and White Supremacists.  And anti-semitics, for the classic case.

People choose these movements when they feel that they've been wronged.  I don't doubt their perception that they've been wronged, or even that it is necessarily a false perception.
But the notion that women, people of color, immigrants, jews, whomever, are the powerful conspiracy that is causing their problems is ridiculous.  

There are many reasons why people with less power are blamed for these grievances:  they are at a disadvantage in fighting back.  Men's Rights Advocates slamming single moms is pathetic.  
Insinuating that boy's education is lagging because girls are getting equal access is... what exactly are you saying?  Because it comes across like this:
Little girls getting equal time from the teacher oppresses little boys.  
How about the neoliberal offensive to defund public schools, the decay of inner cities as property flees to the suburbs, increasing class sizes, the increase in the work week and resultant pressures on parenting, etc.  These seem to have more to do with difficulties in school than a balancing of past inequities.

This was said best and most humorously by the Austin Lounge Lizards in their song, &lt;a href="http://www.austinloungelizards.com/teenage_immigrant_mothers.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;"Teenage Immigrant Welfare Mothers on Drugs".&lt;/a&gt;  (They're taking our jobs!)

And Erin:  &lt;a href="http://solidarity.feminists.home.att.net/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Feminist Retreat in NYC&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see quite a few similarities between the Men&#8217;s Rights Advocates and White Supremacists.  And anti-semitics, for the classic case.</p>
<p>People choose these movements when they feel that they&#8217;ve been wronged.  I don&#8217;t doubt their perception that they&#8217;ve been wronged, or even that it is necessarily a false perception.<br />
But the notion that women, people of color, immigrants, jews, whomever, are the powerful conspiracy that is causing their problems is ridiculous.  </p>
<p>There are many reasons why people with less power are blamed for these grievances:  they are at a disadvantage in fighting back.  Men&#8217;s Rights Advocates slamming single moms is pathetic.<br />
Insinuating that boy&#8217;s education is lagging because girls are getting equal access is&#8230; what exactly are you saying?  Because it comes across like this:<br />
Little girls getting equal time from the teacher oppresses little boys.<br />
How about the neoliberal offensive to defund public schools, the decay of inner cities as property flees to the suburbs, increasing class sizes, the increase in the work week and resultant pressures on parenting, etc.  These seem to have more to do with difficulties in school than a balancing of past inequities.</p>
<p>This was said best and most humorously by the Austin Lounge Lizards in their song, <a href="http://www.austinloungelizards.com/teenage_immigrant_mothers.html" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Teenage Immigrant Welfare Mothers on Drugs&#8221;.</a>  (They&#8217;re taking our jobs!)</p>
<p>And Erin:  <a href="http://solidarity.feminists.home.att.net/" rel="nofollow">Feminist Retreat in NYC</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
